|
|
Post by mattyb on Oct 17, 2012 19:55:20 GMT
Hi All, Pretty new to the world of WFO and have spent a few hours browsing the forum in preparation of having an oven installed in my back garden and (hopefully) setting up my own mobile WFO business next year. Having looked on the DEFRA site, I noted that the area where I live (Wigan) has been declared as an area with partial smoke controls. Should I find out that my house falls within a smoke controlled area (I assume so as I live quite close to the town centre) then I'm under the impression that a self build WFO is out of the question and I'm restricted to a ready made WFO supplied by a DEFRA authorised manufacturer - I believe Dingley Dell are the only UK based MFR with permission granted?? With regards to my impending mobile business, as I'm looking to sell via Street Trade, Festivals/Markets, Garden pizza parties..etc within the Wigan Borough, again I would expect that I'm restricted to an authorised mobile Dingley Dell (trailer) WFO? I'm just wondering if the majority of you guys who have self built are in areas without smoke control? Or if any of you live in an area where restrictions are in place and could please give me some advice?  Thanks in advance. Matt |
|
|
|
Post by turkey on Oct 17, 2012 20:52:21 GMT
defra smoke control only covers appliances within a building, so if the oven is in your house / garage then its approved oven only, make one in the garden like a BBQ and anything is fair game under defra rules.
no idea for business use, but again not in a building might be the key.
I am self built in London under smoke control, I e-mailed defra to confirm but its posted on our old forum.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattyb on Oct 17, 2012 21:17:38 GMT
Thanks for the swift response. Having checked out the FAQ's page on the Dingley Dell site, it doesn't clarify re: Oven installed internally. www.dingley-dell.com/pizza_oven_faqsIn fact, this part pretty much states otherwise: |
|
|
|
Post by bookemdanno on Oct 17, 2012 21:44:18 GMT
hmmm, looks like a nicely worded bit of enticement to use their product!
Councils really like to be contacted and i'd do just that! You won't have lost out on anything and you'll know for sure. Its the only way that you can be clear about your requirements and generally get a full understanding of the councils standpoint too. E-mail them with pictures, talk to neighbours, request a meeting with the necessary officer and take plenty of information. They may even come to you, to see the environment.
But if you fall foul of a council, then they really let you know! Its just the same with building controls.
WFOs are so basic, I can't see how one oven can fit within smoke controls and another can't...unless "the 3 manufacturers" have contacted a council and paid a sum for a "certification" for their oven which all ovens would gain if tested, or permissions if councils were contacted in advance (a la Turkey) or..."the 3 manufacturers" are just using a grey area to their advantage.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattyb on Oct 18, 2012 10:36:59 GMT
Thanks for that. Will contact the council for clarification.
|
|
|
|
Post by spinal on Oct 18, 2012 11:26:58 GMT
I had this issue - ended up with a letter from Defra stating that outdoor ovens or covered BBQs are exempt... I've saved a copy somewhere if you wish... That said, it's all down to this line in the clean air act: Prohibition of dark smoke from chimneys (1) Dark smoke shall not be emitted from a chimney of any building, and if, on any day, dark smoke is so emitted, the occupier of the building shall be guilty of an offence. (2) Dark smoke shall not be emitted from a chimney (not being a chimney of a building) which serves the furnace of any fixed boiler or industrial plant, and if, on any day, dark smoke is so emitted, the person having possession of the boiler or plant shall be guilty of an offence. A WVO is neither an industrial plant or boiler, nor is it part of a building (which has, in itself, very clear definitions). Also, reading further down: (4)In any proceedings for an offence under this section, it shall be a defence to prove— . (a)that the alleged emission was solely due to the lighting up of a furnace which was cold and that all practicable steps had been taken to prevent or minimise the emission of dark smoke; Which covers us for the warmup period of the oven  www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1993/11/part/IYou may still fall foul of The Environmental Protection Act if you are a nuisance - but act responsibly (i.e. use dry wood, don't go wild with smoking out your nehibors, offer them a pizza or two, etc) and you should be fine. M. |
|
|
|
Post by turkey on Oct 18, 2012 13:02:19 GMT
indeed, what is interesting is the whole thing is about visible black smoke, if you see one of these ovens running or any wood burning stove you will see there is no chance of that so even as a home made item it passes the requirement and would no doubt pass the DEFRA tests. These tests cost quite a bit so hardly anyone has bothered with them. anyhow I emailed DEFRA after speaking with my council who had no idea,
Richard,
Within smoke control areas it is an offence to emit smoke from the chimney of a building. If you have a pizza oven in your garden it will not be considered an offence unless it's within a structure that could be considered a building, such as an outhouse or shed. If it's a stand alone appliance, this is acceptable.
Please note that if your neighbours are significantly affected by smoke from your appliance, they can claim statutory nuisance as described in the Environmental Protection Act 1990 through the local authority.
Regards
Smoke Control Team
AEASeems pretty clear cut and direct from the horses mouth |
|
|
|
Post by bookemdanno on Oct 18, 2012 17:08:49 GMT
So you could still use a "Defra approved WFO" badly and fall foul of a smoke offence under the act that its supposed to be exempt from!!!! Ha!!!
I'm a corporate policy sceptic at the best of times, but this only goes to fan my flames!
|
|
|
|
Post by faz on Oct 18, 2012 17:27:01 GMT
The statutory nuisance and smoke control provisions are two totally separate pieces of legislation which overlap in the case of fires/ovens/wood burners etc. I don't think this is necessarily made clear by those companies offering type approved ovens for use in smoke control areas. Saying that, if you're firing your oven properly and it isn't located immediately underneath your neighbours living room window, I can't imagine that you'll fall foul of the statutory nuisance provisions of the EPA.
|
|
|
|
Post by h12rpo on Oct 18, 2012 21:13:58 GMT
Well i suppose there could be the obnoxious sound of people having a nice time eating pizza and drinking wine /beer and enjoying good company and generally behaving in a smug manner
;D
|
|
|
|
Post by faz on Oct 18, 2012 22:30:21 GMT
And the noise of the peel sliding in and out of the oven just before dawn as you make 'just one more pizza'  |
|
|
|
Post by mattyb on Oct 19, 2012 0:08:09 GMT
I think it's a case of letting the neighbours know of an impending party, warning them to remove clothing from the washing line and asking them what toppings they would like on their complimentary pizza. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by muddy4x4 on Oct 19, 2012 12:44:15 GMT
Is so bad where we live, as soon as neigbours see us getting the oven out, happy smiling faces appear at the fences ! First time we lite the oven, we did over 30 pizzas to neigbours. At the Jubilee street party we had a constant que all day long. I guess the people around you will take the little bit of start up smoke on the chin, for the taste of a wfo pizza, our do !
|
|
|
|
Post by bookemdanno on Oct 19, 2012 15:58:09 GMT
Muddy, that sounds so cool!!!
|
|
nef
member
Specialist WFO fuel supplier
Posts: 12
|
Post by nef on Oct 19, 2012 16:17:12 GMT
Jay at Dingley Dell has first hand experience of the DEFRA approval process. It took him 3 years and involved his MP getting involved, so was not a straightforward process. The Valoriani and Wood Stone exempt appliances were tested abroad using the test requirements published by DEFRA. If you want chapter and verse, Jay is the man. The issue with a pizza oven in a back garden is largely down to what contributes a building. This is the same legislation that means that a smoking place outside a pub/workplace can only have 3 walls such that it does not constitute a building. If it is not a building then as previously stated in this thread there is no issue PROVIDED that nuisance smoke is not created. The actual operating manuals for all DEFRA exempt WFO's is that the oven must be brought up to temperature using an 'approved fuel' or a portable gas lance. Wood can only be used once the appliance is to temperature. Gas lances with bottle are available for less than £20. The practical reality is that local authorities are only taking action where nuisance smoke is being produced. To avoid nuisance smoke, make sure you use a good fuel and a lighting technique that reduces smoke. If you are going to install a mobile oven and start using this as your trade, then I would strongly advise: - Install only a DEFRA exempt appliance
- Use a quality wood fuel that does not create smoke
- Ensure you understand the HACCP implications of wood in a food environment.
We have come across a number of mobile pizza vans falling foul of the above and being shut down on the day, with ongoing repercussions. |
|
