Cold Ferment Dough Methods

[jerrym]

tonyb's post on slow pizza dough got me pondering something i've not been able to resolve myself.

jeff varasano has put a lot of us onto cold fermenting dough ie mix, autolyse, knead, ball, box, refrigerate. i've done this for a while and am convert.

i then came across minesamojito's dough on this forum and have used it pretty much ever since. it does not as per spec need cold ferment in fact the freshness is a key part of the recipe. fresh yeast works particularly well for example.

i still can't make my mind up on cold ferment though and tend to sometimes do a varasano take on minesamojito's recipe ie mix, box, refrigerate, knead, ball, box.

essentially i put the whole batch in a 3L container, keep it in the fridge for however many days i need (days to when i need it, adjusting the amount of yeast) stirring/mixing it each day. then on day of use knead (i keep back the amount of bench flour needed from the original batch), ball and individually box.

what i'm after is any thoughts on the right's and wrong's of the 2 off methods. both seem to me to produce identical results - theoretically i'm not sure this should be the case given the totally different process.

[cannyfradock]

Hey Jerry

...I'm also playing "catch up" with all the good dough recipe's that have been posting on the forum. With the input from Tony B and minesamojito's .....and many others, it's a pleasure playing trial and error with all the dough recipe's that get posted on the forum.

At my early stage in home baking. I'm always looking for better results, but I'm never dissapointed....and my loaves are always eaten......they're pretty good actually, but I'm not quite there yet.

Terry

[tonyb]

You should get quite different tasting products using 'fresh' or 'natural' sourdough yeasts.

The whole premise of sourdough is that there is both a yeast component and a bacterial component to the sourdough starter. Depending on the proving temperatures, the yeast/bacteria increase at different rates, and in general, higher temps favour yeast growth, lower temps favour acid forming bacteria growth. But you also need to remember that we are talking about a range of yeast and bacterial cultures which can vary geographically ( San Fransisco sourdough should have a higher proportion of lactobacillus sanfransiscencis, I kid you not). Each of the yeast and bacterial strains have their own raising and acidification ('souring') properties which ultimately give the bread its 'taste'.

In general, the more bacterial activity the more 'taste' and digestively this is considered better, and its the cold fermentation that provides the period of bacterial growth. Sourdough starters do not have the same raising potential as modern yeasts.

Modern yeasts have been bred to provide quick raising bread doughs. there is no intrinsic bacterial population so arguably no material benefit from cold fermentation, other than to stop bread over-proving. It's generally done to fit in with more convenient baking times.

As you probably realise, its a lot more complicated than the simple explanation I've given above, and though I've read a lot round the subject of sourdough, I'm no expert. Here's a wikipedia link to sourdough to give you some idea of the complexities.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough

The Bread Builders by Alan Scott also has some useful information on sourdoughs.

[jerrym]

tonyb,

many thanks - yes Daunting.

going to be a job for the winter for sure.

am certainly going to have to give it a try if only to put my mind at rest.

for info have tried a quasi method of mixing over-fermented dough with fresh dough but with limited results. hence the interest in trying out the sourdough for real.

[tonyb]

It took me a couple of attempts to get a white sourdough starter going mainly through impatience but found a rye starter much easier. I think in the end I used some of the rye starter to impregnate the white starter, working on the basis that after a few feedings there wouldn't be much rye left anyway.

I've had the starters now for over 3 years despite some haphazard care they are still going strong.

When you get round to it post your progress here.

[scottme]

My white sourdough starter took about two weeks to get to the point where it was usable. I don't recall where I found the method, but a key point was to use a fruit juice instead of water for the first few days/refreshes. I used non-concentrate cloudy apple juice. Apparently the acidity helps the bacteria you want and discourages the ones you don't. Anyway, it worked a treat and I now have a culture which reliably turns out delicious loaves.

I used the same fruit juice approach to make a rye starter, and that came through a lot quicker. My family are not so keen on rye breads though, so that leaven tends to languish in the fridge.

[jerrym]

Many thanks both.

i use rye (7%) in my dough (actually as the bench flour) and like it so no problems as a starter.

i've read too on the need for fruit juice. before starting will retrace my initial info search which would have started at pizzamaking.com

[cannyfradock]

Mark

Interesting option to go with apple juice. I think Hugh F.W uses a piece of rhubarb...and Dan Lepard uses currents (or raisons). I've also heard of a few others, but they all seem to be fruit with a high acid content.

Terry

[tonyb]

There is quite a bit of comment on the usefulness of various fruit or other additions to the starter to get it going, most of which is anecdotal and not very scientific in approach though usually accompanied by some post hoc explanation.

I'm not suggesting any of the additives don't work, its just that the wide range of 'essential' additives quoted makes me wonder if they make any difference at all or whether adding anything organic will improve success.

[DuncanM]

I find the fruit addition quite interesting. I've never done it myself (usually use just plain white bread flour, water and a whole lot of whisking outside) but I've been reading a lot about cider making recently and there are lots of wild yeast on fruit skins as they can be used to make cider, so maybe this is the reason.

[tonyb]

There are many strains of 'wild' yeast (over 1500 according to Wikipedia) on you, me, in the air and on fruits and other vegetable matter, particularly if there is some carbohydrate 'food' for them. It doesn't however mean that they are all good at raising dough. Also, they each have optimum environments ie temp and pH etc, in which they flourish. Even within a standard flour based starter the strains of yeast tend to vary over the first few weeks until the dominant yeasts for that environment take over. I've seen references somewhere which talk about buying say the san fransisco culture to make a starter which over time is taken over by local yeasts. It may be that there are higher populations of yeast in the fruit additives which do initially produce fermentation but that the base local strains eventually take over the starter.

[Fat Bob]

Fruit has natural yeasts living on the skin that's why it's used.

[salilah]

Some of the science behind the pineapple juice solution here:

www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/

(think there are 2 parts to the post)

The Fresh Loaf is a great source for bread ideas (including but not only sourdough) - well worth checking out!
(disclaimer - no connection, just an enthusiastic participant who has learned loads!!)

[jerrym]

had real disaster on cold ferment. been adding 0.6% sugar on 2 day dough to give a browner look to the top.

i then blindly used same in a long (aimed at 6d) cold ferment and found the sugar is big no no. it speeds up the ferment far too much. was ready in under 3 days despite using 0.2% yeast.

have also got the sourdough on the go - using the below link. i think i'm on day 6 but sort of lost track down to forgetting to feed. have used 50:50 rye:plain flour.

will post when i've got my 1st pizza. thinking of using the jeff varasano recipe which i think uses ~9% sourdough with some normal yeast.


slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/11/how-to-make-sourdough-starter-day-0.html?ref=search

[jerrym]

the sourdough seems to have got spurt on and decided to chance an indoor oven pizza wednesday.

have started the sponge tonight for cold ferment in the fridge, recipe being:

SD1
No off Pizza 6
Flour 700g
Hydration 63%
salt 0.7%
ADY 0.25%

Cold ferment sponge
Bread Flour 326g
Plain Flour 326g
Water 441g
salt 5ml
ADY ml 2.9


day 2 ingredients (5 min knead, ball, box)

Rye Flour 49g (bench flour)
Sourdough 63g (9%)

Total 1212 (202g ea 9" pizza)

aiming to split the sourdough tuesday morning, giving 24hrs to feed the child sourdough before adding into the sponge.