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Post by pizzaofdreams on Nov 14, 2012 19:48:30 GMT
Many of you may know that I have a wood fired oven in a converted horsebox for commercial use. This works well and is relatively light and big. It doesn't have a flue but that is not an issue as the smoke vents out of the horsebox. However, I am now looking to expand next year and add an all year round option so I am looking seriously at getting an old Citroen H Van converted. The biggest issue I have is what oven to use in it. I could go down the Dingley Dell route but quite frankly I find that their ovens are just way overpriced. Who can recommend a kit or an oven supplier who makes a quality product at a reasonable price that would be suitable and stand up to the rigour of being in a van? I know slowfood put an adapted normal oven in a horsebox and made various devices to protect it from travel damage, I'd love to know more about that or other ideas. I am happy to build it from a kit if anyone can recommend a suitable one.
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Post by Fat Bob on Nov 14, 2012 19:57:11 GMT
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Post by muddy4x4 on Nov 14, 2012 20:00:31 GMT
What is the payload of the H van ? A traditional WFO is just going to be way too heavy ! Your going to need a 1.2m oven minimum, so I am guessing at 900kg plus with base etc, not a lot of weight left for fridges etc
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Post by pizzaofdreams on Nov 14, 2012 20:10:17 GMT
Muddy 4x4, I think the payload is between 1250 -1500Kg depending on model. I am accepting that capacity will be lower than my Bernito oven in the horsebox, but with only two or three people working in the van then the capacity will be limited by that rather than the oven so i think we can get away with a smaller oven. 600-700Kg ? It would be great if I could get a Bernito style oven with a flue but the one on the website is too small.
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Post by muddy4x4 on Nov 15, 2012 13:32:39 GMT
My 1.2m Bernito has a flue and weighs about 75kg, Very economical on fuel. Here is a photo of one of our test sessions with our 1.2m oven. By the time you add up the weights, I don't think it would be economic to use a H van as a standalone unit, you'll properly need a support vehicle, in which case your back to a trailer routine. The van would be great for doing Pub car parks as a round vehicle, but not sure it would have the storage volume / weight capacity to make a viable unit. But they do look damn good ! Attachments:
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Post by Happy Baker on Nov 15, 2012 14:28:38 GMT
Don't forget there are longer wheelbase H vans ...
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Post by Fat Bob on Nov 15, 2012 18:44:20 GMT
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Post by cannyfradock on Nov 17, 2012 11:50:11 GMT
Pizza of Dreams
I don't know Bernito ovens, only comments from the guys on the forum so can't comment in that direction either way.
It may be worth a second look at Dingley Dell as Jay's prices differ quite a lot depending on what oven he sells. Jay mostly sells insulated modular ovens mounted onto a bespoke trailer tailored for the hot food vendor ...or installs ovens into bespoke unit trailers where the oven is part of ready made kitchen. He also sells a basic model for domestic outdoor use. If you wanted to add your own insulation, then the costs would at a minimum.......I know Jay, but this is not a plug for a mate....just a general opinion of an oven which is designed for efficiency with an aperture for the vent which can be used for a simple garden oven or within a mobile unit.....I honestly think that his prices justify his product (and he's Depra approved for inner cities).
A modular lightweight oven is what you want for your operations, but it needs to be an oven that will take a lot of firing and can take the needs of a mobile operation. It seems "Muddy" has used the Bernito oven with great success so I won't venture in that direction.
E-Bay has modular ovens, but personally if I bought a modular oven for commercial use I would want a company who could give customer after care......and a true understanding of their product.
Scott from "The Garden Gift Shop" also has many different modular ovens from a few different manufactures so there is a good choice of ovens to suit many needs. he is very phone friendly so maybe a call to him will give you a better scope of what cab be bought for the best price to meet your needs.
Liam from "Kilnlinings" (will be soon) selling an Italian range of modular ovens which look really good and can be adapted for dual gas and wood firings.
At the end of the day.....you are the client and all the above recommends should give you "time of day" when you contact them......if they don't, take your business elsewhere. Even so exploit all the avenues available to you as the oven you choose may have to be hard working for the the next 5 years or so. After that if you haven't made enough money to buy a better model......then try something else, but by that time....all going well, things will be totally different for you.
Best regards.....
Terry
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Post by hedgemonkey on Nov 18, 2012 16:26:33 GMT
Love the look of your website Pizza of Dreams, excellent set up you have there. Did you put any pictures up of converting your horsebox?
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Post by muddy4x4 on Nov 18, 2012 22:33:49 GMT
I agree Terry, one has to find a supplier they are happy with and an appropriate oven for the proposed use ! Finding and appropriate vehicle for conversion is very difficult. A Transit 3.5 ton transit only has a payload of 1.5 Tons. If you go for a vehicle greater than 3.5 tons, you need an operators licence and all that that entails. Trying to get WFO, Fridges, stock, staff etc in to 1.5 Tons is hard. The other option is a trailer. Again if the gross weight of vehicle is above 3.5 Tons, the vehicle should be fitted with a Tacho and operate within the vehicle drive time directive with VOSA. Yes, their are loop holes and exceptions, showman's class vehicles etc. But before you go that route please seek professional advice. When VOSA carry out checks, 7 out of 10 vehicles registered showman's don't comply, and could end up with massive duty fines, court costs (ignorance is no defence) and you pride and joy in a crusher. In London, environmental health law means that your food must be prepared in a inspected registered kitchen, if being sold to the public. Rarely will a domestic kitchen meet this standard. In my research I have visited many markets and eaten much street food, all of it tasted excellent and with no ill effects. One of my friends is a Environmental Heath consultant, and he has come out with me a few times to different events, and he stands and watches people and starts listing the violations, its scary. On more than one occasion, he has gone and had words, explained that what their doing is going to get them into trouble. With my work, I spend a lot of time in discussion with the regulator (ofcom), and found that people in these type of work are only too pleased to help. I don't want to burst anyone's pizza bubble. we all have dreams and ideas. All I ask is that before building your pizza truck / trailer etc, you check what is required and legal in each element. A couple of weeks ago I saw a Portuguese WFO on a unbraked trailer. It was junk, but the seller was saying it was an excellent business opportunity !
What I love about this forum, is their are lots of people with different ideas and experiences, with a common love of WFO, ask a question, you get a load of different but valid answers ! Thank you Folks !
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Post by cannyfradock on Nov 19, 2012 18:08:58 GMT
Muddy......what a brilliant post!!
I think your sincere insight on becoming your own boss of a mobile Wood-fired oven business may put off all but the "Gung ho" and totally commited of entrepreneurs in starting up their own business......but usually only this type of people end up making a success of such a challenge.
In my own experience I had to drastically change my approach on becoming a mobile food vendor, after realising the complications that stood in my way of simply selling Pizzas.
Apart from the initial Insurance policies and public liability insurance, certification of food handling, registration with my own local authorities and on-site inspection of my unit from the environmental health authorities, the way in which food was processed was also a nightmare. Along with silly rents and our unkind climate all make it difficult to even break even on being a mobile food vendor......only the foolhardy or totally commited should take on such a challenge.......p.s......I'm totally foolhardy and commited (or should be) so that isn't going to stop ME.....
But in all honesty, Muddy, it is a quagmire of red tape and difficult legislation before you can even get your show on the road.
As you say.....the forum throws up a lot of things ...questions and answers and very often I take a back seat and learn a lot from fellow members.
Terry
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Post by muddy4x4 on Nov 20, 2012 11:42:14 GMT
Thank you Terry, I have only been playing with WFO's for a year, and the information and help from this forum is invaluable ! I get withdrawal symptoms if I don't fire up an WFO and cook something at least once a month. Their is something so very satisfying about cooking and feeding people in this way. Having got our oven in October of last year, the comments of our friends and neighbors soon had us thinking about doing this as a small business. We came up with a basic business plan, researched it, changed it, researched it, changed it, and it will be forever evolving as we fine tune it. September and October saw us acquire most of the building blocks and a 3.5t van to convert. 1st December will see us take over our 1500 sq ft industrial unit, which will be our office, food preparation and workshop. In the last year we have done a number of events for charity and our Street Party for the jubilee. When we tell people were firing the oven at home, rarely is the gathering less than 20 people ! From my research, many of the people out their are simply breaking all the rules, mainly through lack of research and thinking that they will get away with it for a while, which I am sure they will. I can't work like that. I want my food to be the best it can be and I want to look forward to Environmental Health visiting, knowing that were applying best practice as standard. Starting a mobile WFO Pizza business looked very straight forward, but it then becomes a bit complicated as you tick all the boxes. A bit like life really!
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Post by pizzaofdreams on Nov 20, 2012 17:25:06 GMT
I agree with everything Muddy 4x4 says, everyone thinks it is easy but in reality the idea is the only easy part, from then on in it is a series of lessons, often painful. My oven in the horsebox is a Bernito the same as muddy 4x4's with the exception of the flue, our is flueless. Fine in the horsebox as no one is in there with it but no good like that for a van conversion. I have spoken to Bernard about it and I think I am going to go down the route of a Bernito with flue for the classic van conversion. Probably in the 90cm medium size and possibly two of them. They only weigh 50kg and so won't cause a problem with weight as long as the rest of the conversion is not too weighty.
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Post by muddy4x4 on Nov 20, 2012 19:37:37 GMT
Two ovens sound like a brilliant idea. What we did to work out where everything is going, was to do several drawings on graph paper with cut outs that move about. Once we thought we had the solution, we drew it out on the floor actual size, and using all the bits and cardboard cut out did it again. Really looking forward to seeing your solution, bit like playing tetris !
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Post by pizzaofdreams on Nov 20, 2012 22:47:16 GMT
Thank you Terry, some good suggestions to look into there. The Bernito oven has served me well this year. However, it does need repairs (I'm off to see Bernard on Thursday) and I have my doubts whether I'll get more than two seasons out of it...but, and it's a big one. A Dingley oven ready to fit with flue etc. will cost me around 6k a Bernito medium oven will be around 1200 when I fit the flue etc. I could afford to change the oven every year and still have change after five years. Worth considering I'm sure you'll agree? I have seen the other suppliers you mention but I am worried about the weight and suitability for a mobile oven. I know Jay has done some reinforcing of his ovens to cope with that. I'll report back after meeting with Bernard on Thursday. Muddy 4x4, I am also looking at an industrial unit for next year. A trailer, a van and a supply van are all going to take up a lot of space. What sort of rent have you found on a 1500 foot unit? Then you have business rates, power....the list is endless.
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