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Post by devorah on May 12, 2015 12:38:15 GMT
I have submitted a planning application to erect a shed kitchen with a external WFO on the patio at the rear of my house. The mouth of the oven would open into the shed. I want to cook and sell pizzas for delivery by bicycle around my village for 3 days a week, 3 hours each day. Comments have just come in from the Environmental Health Dept. that cooking odour is a concern, even with the installation of an odour abatement system (I was suggesting an ozone generation system). I have given them information provided by the oven manufacturers (Stonebake Oven Company) who tell me that the odour of their ovens is minimal due to the high temperatures the oven reach and cook at. I have offered to run the oven on gas only to address any concerns they may have around smoke, so smoke is not an issue. Environmental Health have commented as follows: Whilst the activities proposed may not amount to a statutory smoke, odour or noise nuisance, there will be adverse impact on residential amenity and we recommend refusal.
Can anyone signpost me to credible information re odour / odour control relating to cooking pizza in a WFO / WFO fuelled by gas? If I cannot provide technical info which can show that my neighbours will not be adversely impacted by odour, my application will fail  |
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Post by DuncanM on May 16, 2015 20:27:37 GMT
Hi Devorah,
Excellent idea! Shame that it looks to fall foul of the EH people.
What sort of setting are you in? How big is your garden, how close are your neighbours etc?
What part of your overall design required planning permission? I thought sheds could be put up without them? On top of that, pizza ovens don't require planning permission either, so confused a bit. Maybe yours is more substantial then what I'm envisaging. I think if I fired my oven 3 days a week every week it probably would annoy the neighbours, only the initial startup phase with smoke. Once she's up to temp there have never been complaints.
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Post by albacore on May 16, 2015 22:24:41 GMT
When I fire up my domestic WFO I really don't think cooking odour is an issue; as DunanM says, smoke is, at the firing stage, but you are circumventing that by using gas.
Just wondering if you can invite the Environmental Health to observe an existing installation somewhere to show how minimal the odour is.
There are lots of mobile ovens around now, which might be suitable examples.
Good luck!
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Post by chas on May 17, 2015 7:06:03 GMT
Hi Devorah, I think maybe what you are falling foul of here as a planning issue is that anything to do with commercial cooking is seen as a potential nuisance to the extent that it's classified as anti-social. To illustrate that, any existing cafe/pub/chippie can close and reopen as a retail shop without planning consent, but you can't move the other way.
In a residential property's garden, in a closely residential location, no matter how attractive the idea of an artisan bakery is to most of us here, nimbies both official and 'neighbourly' will be excited and it becomes a planning issue when you want to sell the product - though as Duncan and Albacore have said, size of property and remoteness from beighbours/inoffensiveness of the operation may just get you by with conditions attached.
However, there are plenty of case-history artisan bakery projects starting and remaining in domestic kitchens. Had you considered bringing your oven indoors?
Chas
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Post by devorah on May 17, 2015 16:37:17 GMT
I live in a small terrace and the proposed shed kitchen and oven are on my patio at the back of my house - very near to my house and neighbours' houses. I can't bring the operation indoors because my kitchen is tiny and couldn't accommodate it.
The really difficult issues are re cooking odour (where I think that Environmental Health lack the knowledge to make an informed comment - they are assuming the WFO will have the same impact re odour as a standard commercial oven), and noise from increased activity due to delivery staff coming in and out.
My planning application outlines a range of measures to address noise, but without any technical info re cooking odour from a WFO, I can't do anything to show that there will be no cooking odour (other than show them an oven in operation as you suggest albacore). I just wondered whether anyone on here knew of any info I could draw on which would help to convince EH the cooking odour will not be an issue.
I have to have planning permission for the shed kitchen because it will need to be built from scratch. If I'd been converting an existing shed, this wouldn't have been an issue. But planning would always have had to be involved because of 'change of use'. Their latest suggestion is a possible granting of a 5 year temporary permission - which is better than a refusal - but the case officer remains worried by EH comments about odour, so even temporary permission may not be forthcoming.
I know I'm trying for something here that is hard to achieve. I can't find any egs of others in UK doing what I'm proposing to do and I can't be the first to have had the idea. I suspect that planning has nipped others plans in the bud. I've not lost hope though. Hopefully I should hear this coming week. In the mean time, if anyone knows of info re cooking odour from WFOs, that would be wonderful!
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Post by DuncanM on May 18, 2015 17:35:06 GMT
Speaking very frankly, if I lived in a small terrace very close to a few other neighbours then I would be concerned about someone wanting to operate a WFO 3 days a week on a commercial basis next door to me. Like I said above, smoke isn't an issue once fired, but there is that initial warm-up period, and whilst I don't believe I'm being a nuisance to my neighbours with it every once in a while, if I did it 3 days per week I'd personally think I was. Could possibly get around it by starting the oven at very unsociable hours like very early mornings, but then you'd need to obvious work around that.
I do wish you all the best with your application though, maybe it's worth renting a small WFO, or perhaps even building a cob one (for almost free) for a few months during the summer, that way you can allay / demonstrate any concerns either the EA or your neighbours may have.
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Post by devorah on May 19, 2015 9:40:33 GMT
As I say, I've offered to fire the oven on gas only which produces no smoke - so smoke is not an issue. What I'm interested in finding our more about is cooking odour...Also the operation would only be open from 5pm - 8pm 3 days a week
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Post by devorah on May 19, 2015 9:42:49 GMT
If anyone on here lives in or near Suffolk and has an oven from the Stonebake Oven Company, could you get in touch with me?
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Post by chas on May 19, 2015 12:47:56 GMT
I want to cook and sell pizzas for delivery by bicycle around my village for 3 days a week, 3 hours each day.... Environmental Health have commented as follows: Whilst the activities proposed may not amount to a statutory smoke, odour or noise nuisance, there will be adverse impact on residential amenity and we recommend refusal.
Ok... back to first principles:
You wouldn't want to do this if it was going to upset your neighbours, would you?So, canvas their opinion and get it in writing, a sort of mini petition from those either side of you and over the back fence. If you can get 100% support (or lack of objection, not the same thing but just as useful) then in the absence of proof from the EHO that it will be objectionable and the presence of help from those actually on site, the EHO objections may disappear. Chas |
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Post by devorah on May 19, 2015 12:52:51 GMT
Oh Chas, if only that was possible!
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Post by rivergirl on May 22, 2015 10:21:55 GMT
I cannot think that there would be concerns about odours. Unless they mean smoke odours and not cooking odours?
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Post by devorah on May 22, 2015 17:21:49 GMT
There won't be any smoke because I'll be firing on gas only. They do have concerns about cooking odours and are recommending refusal partly because of this concern. I posted here to see if anyone knew of any sources of credible info re cooking odour from WFOs. People in the know tell me there won't be any odour because of the high cooking temps and the nature of the oven, but I need to be able to prove this to Environmental Health. I have found a very fabulous woman in Suffolk who owns the model I plan to buy and is happy for EH to visit her to smell the lack of cooking odour for themselves - but I don't know if they are prepared to do this at this late stage in the planning permission process. Basically, the application looks set to fail, mainly because of cooking odour concerns which are incorrect. If any one knows of info I could point EH to to convince them they are wrong, please do let me know!
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Post by rivergirl on May 22, 2015 21:04:19 GMT
Have you got any eateries near you that use a WFO??
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Post by rivergirl on May 22, 2015 21:04:58 GMT
If so could you contact them to see how they tackled this issue?
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Post by devorah on May 23, 2015 16:23:32 GMT
There are some, but they use the WFO in a commercial kitchen with extraction and ventilation systems - so it's not relevant.
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