Sourdough - my first attempt

[spinal]

So last weekend I went to Shambala (a music festival); and there was a section on permaculture people.

One of the chaps was giving talks on sourdough, and hading out samples of yeast. One was "san francisco" strain, one was "welsh" (and the other's I can't remember as I didn't get any of those ). I thought this was perfect for the pizza oven, so I started experimenting and learning while waiting for the oven to be built...

Anyhow, long story short, today I tried baking some sourdough for my first time in my life - it's been interesting... and a LOT of fun!

I'll let the pictures do the talking! (baked in 3 phases to learn from my mistakes)

Dought formed and ready for proofing:


A few of the loaves, proofing in the oven:


First loaf, ready to bake:


First loaf - tastes good, but not baked enough. Crust too thin. Also, it's not nice and golden on the outside. The the next loaves, I wet the crust before baking to give them more color.


Now there's a loaf I'm happier about!


All the loaves together:


I need to figure out how to get the bread to have bigger "holes" rather than small ones... I think a (much) longer proofing time. I got bored/impatient after 2.5 hours of proofing. Also, I need to find a way to stop the bread from drying out or sticking to the cling film. The one without the cling-film ended up with a dry "skin" - the one with the cling film ended up stuck to the cling-film.

Right... off to figure out what to do with all the bread!

M.

[minesamojito]

Awesome! good job, those look great, as you say longer proove=bigger holes
Cheers
Marcus

[spinal]

Another question while I have the experts to hand... I was kneading for 20-25 minutes (by hand) before the dough started feeling "right".

I keep reading not to use a dough mixer... yet I don't know if I can do it by hand, especially for bigger batches!

Do people hand-knead or do you use mixers?
M.

[minesamojito]

I hand knead, but try 5 mins, leave for half an hour, then knead for 5 mins, the resting does the work for you.
I always hand-knead, but love doing that.
cheers
Marcus

[turkey]

lovely bread, I use a tray at the bottom if the oven with boiling water to steam the oven as the bread bakes, thus gives that great crust (in theory).

for proofing I have taken to upside down bowls and such over the loaves to stop them sticking or drying, i really should get some wicker baskets to prove in it dome thick linen to lay the bread on.

for the holes longer proving and possibly a second rise ? I tried to do ciabatta and ended up with dense bread rolls, I think I rushed both first and second rise. I think mastering the crumb (inside bit) is the hardest as you have to know your dough.

[ricksterr]

Spinal first of all well done, loaves look great.
But dont be scared of a mixer Its good to knead by hand so as the baker can get a feel for the dough and to feel the gluten develop.
Using a mixer isnt a bad thing, a lot of bakers use them especially because of the amount of bread they produce.
You mentioned larger holes in your bread, sourdough takes time, a long time to ferment thus producing the gasses to produce a better texture (bigger holes) however thats what makes breadmaking so much fun, always trying to produce the perfect loaf

P.S.. sourdough is very temperamental and temperature and humidity can play a huge part on the final product.

Once you have the bread bug you wont be able to stop.... ;D

[cannyfradock]

Spinal

Great looking bread especially for someone who has just started baking. I always make my bread by hand (can't afford a mixer) and have found through experience that the more water (hydration) the dough has the better the results. I used to add far too much flour to the mixed dough to make it manageable, but with a bit more experience you learn to handle "sticky dough" which in turn gives a better crumb.

Terry.

[spinal]

Sticky dough - will try that next time!

As for a pan of water in the oven, tried that... seemed easier to just wet my hands and get the skin of the dough wet

Mixer - it's not a mixer really... it's a cheap argos bread machine which I stop before it starts baking

M>

[scottme]

I may just be lucky but I've had no trouble with my sourdough bread. I use Marriage's Manitoba flour which is very high protein (13.6%). I work out how much flour to use depending on how much leaven I happen to have. The recipe calls use 40% of good active leaven at 100% hydration, plus 65% water and 2% salt, nothing else. I usually end up with about 2Kg of dough.

I make the dough more or less according to Dan Lepard's technique which involves frequent short spells of kneading, and when I'm bored with doing that I just pop it in the fridge for between 12 and 24 hours. I take it out, divide into loaf-sized lumps, about 750g ideally, knead again then place in cloth-lined, floured baskets to rise, which takes 3-5 hours depending on the temperature.

Before baking at 220°C, I turn out the loaves onto a heated, semolina-dusted baking sheet or peel (if it's going into the WFO), slash the dough a few times, and give it a little shower using a hand held trigger sprayer.

I usually bake for 35-40 minutes. Comes out lovely every time, and the family has no problem demolishing the bread as fast as I can make it.

I get a good springy open textured crumb (sometimes it can be almost too open and ciabatta-like), which I put down to the high protein level, the long fermentation and the relatively high hydration.

[spinal]

I used sainsbury strong white bread flour, which had the highest protein content I could find on the shelf (13.4%) and at 77p for 1.5kg was pretty cheap too.

Recipe - tbh, I didn't use one!

I grabbed most of my culture (leaving some to propagate - I would guess maybe 1.5 cups?); most of a pack of flour (1.5kg minus a bit, so let's say 1.2kg), about a tablespoon of salt. Water was then added until the dough had a doughy consistency

Very accurate and scientific as you can see!
M.

[scottme]

16Kg sack of Marriages Manitoba flour costs £11.99 at Costco. I reckon that beats any supermarket flour hands down.

I have recently come across JJ Foodservice, who do a vast range of different flours, including several pizza flours, in 16Kg sacks starting from only £5.29. I bought a sack of "Bravo" pizza flour and it made rather nice sourdough bases at the weekend.

[spinal]

Didn't think of costco - will grab a bag next time I'm there.

While on the topic of flour, I noticed that nifeislife does Caputo pizza flour... once I'm closer to finishing the oven, a bag of that will definitely be in my next order from them!

M.

[scottme]

Another excellent pizza flour - I bought a bag of this from the Italian Continental Stores in Maidenhead, and I can't wait to go back to get some more. The pizza bases made from this were truly delicious.

[matt]

Cracking loaves spinal. As Terry says, you'll get bigger holes with a wetter dough. I'd head for a ratio of 70% water. E.g 700g total water to 1000g total flour.

Dough development is important too, and the hourly stretch and fold technique in Dan Lepard's book, as mentioned above, develops the gluten strands that become the big bubbles.

High protein content is good but not essential on the holey crumb trail - Italian bakers historically had low-ish protein flour available and still produced big holey breads like pugliese.

[salilah]

Is your starter really happy and lively and active?

One recipe I use (love it) - DMSnyder's Pugliese

100g starter (100% hydration)
270g water
mix well
150g durum wheat flour (really hard to find, sadly - if anyone has a source, please let me know!)
230g strong white bread flour (e.g. waitrose really strong canadian)
mix well leave for 30mins
add 7g salt (pref sea salt) - mix well

Then - roughly every 30mins or so - in the bowl, stretch and fold the dough back on itself a few times - I go round the bowl about 4 times, with folding in each side on top of hte rest. Repeat 4-5 times. Let rise until it looks light and fluffy - at current temperatures, around 2 hours? Aim is to nearly double in size

Shape roughly into a boule - leave 20-30m

Shape properly - good skin tension - then leave to prove either alone or in a banneton to support for around 2-3 hours (you can refrigerate of course - either here or earlier) - until it passes the "finger poke test"

Bake ideally with steam for around 30m at 240C, then up to 15m at 200C - can't give you WFO instructions as mine isn't built yet!!

HTH
S

PS if you can't get durum - replace with mix of rye, spelt, wholewheat - whatever wanted - but keep overall flour to 380g, it is quite high hydration and gives nice crumb and holes!