how long until you can get it right?

[salilah]

Reporting in with failures, messes and burnt offerings

Oven is a newly built clay dome, around 600cm diameter - we've got the insulation layer on but not the final layer. Yesterday was pide (Turkish pizza), loaf and lamb overnight...

After an hour and a half of a good fire (we thought), we let it die down to coals, then scraped these around the back and sides to cook the loaf (nearly a kg). Floor temperature was around 230C, ceiling was around 300C. Tile over the chimney, and temporary door in place.

20mins - loaf expanded but was still fairly underdone. First mistake - I didn't turn it round! (well, you don't need to if you are used to a normal oven and clay dome!). Another 20mins - it was fairly black on the far side; near side not very well done. We took it out (well, Dr Who was starting). It tastes fine, but is not really properly cooked...

Rebuilt the fire ready for the pide. About an hour in total of re-burning - good flame. OH decided we should cook with the flame still there round the edges (well, that's what the Turkish WFO in the restaurant did!)

First pide - rather too enthusiastic loading, shuttled half the cheese and mince onto the coals! Then the pide stuck, then it completely blackened. At least the base was cooked!

Then a couple of flatbreads - which cooked but burned - so this is appearing too hot? Didn't check temperature (it was dark and we were hungry!)

Then the second pide - which stuck to the peel, then stuck to the floor (a lot - we left the centre of it behind!) - well cooked (actually blackened around the edge) but hte base was not cooked :-(

So - it feels like a) having the coals and flame is OTT, b) we got the top of the oven hot enough but c) we didn't get the base hot enough, even after an additional hour of heat. OH was wondering if we should have put the bricks on end rather than flat (basic red bricks) - I'm wondering if our insulation air gap is not working and we're losing heat out from the bottom. Sticking - we used semolina - I'm thinking next time of parchment paper (we tried foil last time and got very soggy bases)

Finally, with a few flames left but not much, floor temp around 200C I think, dome around 315C, we put in a shoulder of lamb in an enamel lidded casserole with shallots to gently cook overnight. This morning - temperature in oven 30C - and a very carbonised lump of meat surrounded by blackened shallots. So - too hot again I guess???

Any encouraging comments appreciated - we are trying another loaf today once it has risen (sourdough so takes a while) as well as putting on the final plaster... What are we doing wrong? What else could we try?

thanks!!
(disappointed and frustrated but not yet discouraged!!)

[cannyfradock]

Sali.......practice makes perfect.

Apologies first of all as I had to chuckle when you posted this....

"First pide - rather too enthusiastic loading, shuttled half the cheese and mince onto the coals! Then the pide stuck, then it completely blackened. At least the base was cooked!"

I'm sharing your frustrations as I've done the same when working a Clay oven for a community in bath....the hearth bricks were so uneven it was a real challenge in using the peel.



I'm really relieved that your last comment was .....disappointed and frustrated but not yet discouraged!!

There may be many reasons for not achieving good results from your oven. 90% of the time is that there is still a lot of moisture in the oven after building....or the oven hasn't been used in a while and the dreaded damp from our climate has seeped into the dome structure. Usually a few firings over a few days will see a vast improvement in your ovens performance.

Even with a Clay oven we tend to harp on about insulation, insulation and perhaps a bit more insulation. This will make your oven regardless of Pompeii, Vault or Clay oven work more efficiently/economically......but even if the the under hearth insulation or straw hasn't been added to the final Cob layer of your Clay oven, it will still function...........it will just need a bit more fuel to drive the damp out before the oven will retain heat mass. Without insulating properties the oven may lose heat quicker than "with" the correct insulation but you should still be able to bake pizza's or bake bread etc.

I know it's not feasible, but if you baked the exact things the following day you would see a vast improvement on your oven's performance.

Stick at it.....you won't be disappointed.

Terry

[salilah]

Terry - you are a star! Thank you so much

Our hearth bricks are definitely better than that - but we don't (yet) have a proper peel, I'm using flat baking sheets - these worked fine on our course when the pizzas were cooked on a piece of foil, as you could just grab the foil. I must try the foil idea again to see - and probably get a proper (short handled) peel...

Good point re the moisture - it is still very new, and we went on hols for a week so it has sat in our wonderful UK summer (!) climate without heat for a couple weeks - we'll keep going (weekends only, weekdays we are in London)

The top insulation I think is fine (clay slip and wood shavings from pet pack) - OH reckons we have 5-10cm of air gap underneath the sand under the bricks (but I will check the temperature - probably next weekend)

We tried today - another bread - a bit the opposite! We let the fire die down to embers then swept them to the back and sides - oven floor around 250C, top around 350 - 380C. The bread cooked so fast it blew out one side, and sealed the rest - within 5 mins! So I really need to let it cool more before cooking - or take the embers out... Sadly while the crust was done, inside was only around 130F against desired 205F (sorry I use F for bread) so it had to go into the elec oven inside my clay dome thing to heat through for 30mins - it's done but feels heavy so I reckon didn't expand enough. Still - onwards and upwards!

We've now got a chicken in an enamel cooker in there - initially the temperature was way too high - 285C on floor and 350C+ on dome - so we dragged the coals out and let it "soak" - then the chicken went in at around 240C base and 290C dome. After 30mins the chicken is not quite yet cooked (50-somethingC against target of 65-75C) so it is still in there, and OH left the lid on. He said the enamel cooker was around 130C (you can tell we got an electronic laser thermometer thing) as was the base - which was quite a disappointing drop in temperature for me, 240C to 130C in half an hour???

We are keeping fingers crossed that the chicken works, as we don't have a fall-back for dinner (other than a pretty solid loaf!)...

I'll post photos on my other thread - we now have a top smoothed coat and mosaic decoration - it may not cook that well (yet) but it's a pretty cute oven!!!
<grin>

Sali

[surfingspider]

Keep trying. I have a cob oven with 4" pet saw dust insulation layer. It did take a while to get the oven fully dried out. I have. The saw dust clay slip takes up tons of water. I think mine about 10 or more firings to stop steaming out of a crack on the top.

One question I have is are you using a door? Even the form you used to do the arch. If you don't the heat will soon drop. The way I would do it is pizza and flat breads with coals and a few inches of flame. At one side of the oven. Throwing on the odd small peice of super dry hard wood. To keep flames going. If you spill the pizza or get a hole in the bottom that part is going to burn and is no good for cooking pizzas on for a while. I switch sides of the oven, moving the fire to the other side.

Then to do the bread, spread the coals on the floor for 5 min's to spread the heat.then shovle out all the coals and wood and brush out all the ash and use a damp rag to cool the floor slightly andnot get as much ash on your bread. Then door on and soak for 10 mins to even out the hot areas and cold spots. Stick your hand in to judge temp. Load in loaves and shut door again. I have a meat type thermometer that has a wire trailing out of the door so I can check breads internal temp till it reads 190f I dont open the door. After the bread I leave the door off for a while to reduce temp. Then chuck in a load of logs to kiln dry them for the next firing.

That is my schedule anyway. It is an art that is for sure but a lot of fun learning.

[Fat Bob]

Keep at it - it will soon become second nauture.

I like thin crust pizza and we precook the base for a few seconds until the base is semi-cooked. This makes a good crispy base and also makes handling and sticking to the oven floor a thing of the past.

[salilah]

Thanks Surfingspider!
We've only done 4 full firings now I think - so yes, I'll keep going

The door is a challenge :-) We use the form once the flames are out, as it is 5mm thick mdf - but it doesn't fit that well as one of the arch bricks has slipped a bit. Ridgeons quoted around £40 for a stick of hardwood that would do half a door, which I completely rejected - so I'm keeping fingers crossed for ebay...

After yesterday (a very quickly burned loaf which was nowhere near cooked, followed by a beautifully cooked chicken but a very quick drop in temperature) I think we may well need to do shorter repeated firing until the oven stabilises - I've also got one of the thermometers with a wire trail (ideal for bread) so I can use that. Not yet got organised for the drying of next logs - OH reckons we don't need an outside light but I'm fed up with falling over carrying a lantern! So I limit what i need to do after dark <grin>

FatBob - thank you! Yes I reckon practice - it's just the course and the books make it sound so easy, and it isn't! I like the idea of the pre-cooking a base - I'll give that a go next time. Thanks!

Salilah

[tonyb]

Just to say I've been there, seen the film, read the book and got the T shirt

All good advice from the comments above. With regards to sticking to the peel, I use rice flour which is very good at preventing sticking, you also need to keep the dough moving on the peel, so it needs a jiggle every few seconds. For retained heat cooking you definitely need to block the doorway. If you have some clay left why not make some bricks that you can place in the doorway and then maybe something like a fire blanket on some sort of frame to cover up any gaps in the bricks.

[salilah]

Well, ebay worked - a plank of american black walnut for £1 (plus £10 delivery) - very nice! We are half-way through the door (very fiddly) but OH also has work crisis so he's on the phone. Think we'll delay firing until tomorrow!
Re peel, I have rice flour so I'll give that a go
thank you for the empathy - appreciated!! (there must be an opportunity for a WFO T-shirt - front showing a perfect pizza and back showing burnt offerings??? <grin>)

[turkey]

I have not baked bread but I think its worth firing well over the temp you want and let the oven die back, stick the door on or just leave it, this will allow the heat from directly by the fire to spread and more evenly soak the clay, when you go to bake you will get a more even cooking.

temp wise I have no idea but I think it will be easier to judge if you heat and leave then bake as it will be more stable and easier to judge for future baking changes.

[salilah]

Well, things are getting better!!

First firing - not bad, but same issue (I think) - we put flatbread in but it doesn't puff much... First one is pretty like crispbread, second better - so partly the dough but mainly the oven?

Put a cheesebread in - 2 flatbreads with mixed cheese middle - not bad, but not browned, so temperature is too low

Rebuild the fire - woo hoo!

Scrape out the coals then wipe with damp cloth, then the yeast bread goes in - after 10mins - and is fine! We've luckily got a bread thermometer so I can trace a bit what is happening - and hey! after 10 + 10 + 10 mins, the bread is good!! (210F)

Then - put the lambin (well, to be honest, I put it in the oven at 140 just in case for an hour) - and it works well, nice dinner, and the new door is a success!!

Will follow with photos later - now I just need to spend some time with OH who is having a work crisis xxxxx

[tonyb]

Glad its starting to work for you.

Wfos are a bit like teenagers, they need a lot of time, effort and love but you still get the odd temperamental fit

One of the attractions of wfos is that they are sort of 'organic', they do seem to have a mind of their own, but the more you use your wfo the better it becomes and you'll learn to work with it rather than against it and if you stick at it, you'll cook some great food.

[salilah]

Like it - yes I think we have an adopted teenager!!

I'm not sure how much more we will use it over the winter - evenings are not fun (unless I can persuade OH to install lighting)... But - definitely worth carrying on and learning more!
thanks for the support
S