KilnLInings Wet Air Setting Cement

[phi1]

I have under ordered KilnLInings Wet Air Setting Cement    

Does any member have any left over or is anybody in the South East planning on an order from KilnLinings I could add a tub to?  (and pay for of course)

Unfortunately Kilnlinings will only take an order of +£100 and will charge £55 delivery.  A tub of Wet Air Setting Cement is £29.99 from them.

Any other ideas or suggestions would be appreciated 

Thanks

Phil
Star member of idiot of the month 

[cannyfradock]

What a pain Phil!!.....I've never used the fire-clay or wet air setting cement myself. I always use the homebrew mix of sand, cement, lime and powdered fire clay. I don't know of any refractory suppliers in the South East. A bit further North you have Vitcas and Bath Pottery suppliers. You could also try your local Sheffield insulation store. You'll find your nearest store on their website... www.siginsulation.co.uk/

I don't know at what stage you are with your build but if you are anywhere near the top of the dome, I wouldn't use the ready made stuff as most of it doesn't set if used in quantity. If you havenn't any powdered fire-clay, you could finish the job using a 4:1 mortar mix with hydrated lime added.(available at most builders merchants or garden centers)....use marigold gloves if you use lime.

I hope you get a bit more feed-back with someone who can help.

terry

[jrb103]

Hi Phil I am about to place an order with them Oxford based can add to my order if that is any help. As a matter of interest how much did you use for your build?
John

[phi1]

Jun 11, 2015 6:33:48 GMT jrb103 said:

Hi Phil I am about to place an order with them Oxford based can add to my order if that is any help. As a matter of interest how much did you use for your build?
John

I have about 200 Kilnlinings Fire Bricks, I bought the "seconds" and they have been absolutely fine.  Most of the bricks have a chip on one corner or edge which I have either cut off or used on the outside face.

I only ordered one tub (I misread the guide which says its enough for 75 bricks, I thought it said 175) as I have cut each brick in half for the dome I thought it would be enough.


When are you thinking of ordering ?  I want to clarify the advice from Cannyfadock above.

Phil 

[phi1]

Jun 10, 2015 22:17:06 GMT cannyfradock said:

What a pain Phil!!.....I've never used the fire-clay or wet air setting cement myself. I always use the homebrew mix of sand, cement, lime and powdered fire clay. I don't know of any refractory suppliers in the South East. A bit further North you have Vitcas and Bath Pottery suppliers. You could also try your local Sheffield insulation store. You'll find your nearest store on their website... www.siginsulation.co.uk/

I don't know at what stage you are with your build but if you are anywhere near the top of the dome, I wouldn't use the ready made stuff as most of it doesn't set if used in quantity. If you havenn't any powdered fire-clay, you could finish the job using a 4:1 mortar mix with hydrated lime added.(available at most builders merchants or garden centers)....use marigold gloves if you use lime.

I hope you get a bit more feed-back with someone who can help.

terry

Terry

I didn't buy fire clay but I did buy two bags of what Kiln Linings called grog,  I have used it for some wide joints on the first course of soldiers but it seems quite course to me for small joints between bricks. (Im no bricklayer)

I understand that grog is unsuitable fire bricks ground down.  I am getting loads of fine brick powder in the wet saw I am using.  Is this grog?  Can I mix it with sand, cement and lime as mortar?  If yes what measures should I use?

Phil

[phi1]

Jun 11, 2015 6:33:48 GMT jrb103 said:

Hi Phil I am about to place an order with them Oxford based can add to my order if that is any help. As a matter of interest how much did you use for your build?
John

John

Thank you very much for offering to help

I have found 25kg Proset 2 Wet Air Setting Cement on eBay £33 including delivery so will order from them

I will also use the grog mixture as crannyfadock suggested.

Thank you again, it shows the great facility the forum offers.

Phil

[cannyfradock]

Phil

I originally created the forum in the hope of attracting a few members so I could learn a lot more about Wood-fired oven building. Many years down the line and I've gained a lot more knowledge...and experience, but....I'm still learning!!

Unfortunately I've never used "Grog". Unless it's the same stuff Liam (or perhaps I) calls powdered fire-clay. This comes in a white plastic/hessian type of bag. 25KG in weight with no writing/description on the bag. It's actually not powder at all. It's more like granules that often clump together inside the bag. I wonder if this is the same stuff? If it is, it gives the refractory mortar or "homebrew" it's refractory qualities. The lime lets the mortar breath and allows slight movement between cold and white hot. The sand and cement gives the mortar it's strength.

Presuming this is the same stuff:- The Guru's on the FB forum suggest a ratio of 4:1:1:1....sand, cement, hydrated lime and fire-clay. I tend to find that this is too rich and fine cracks appear in the mortar in heat sensitive area's.(which is just about everywhere on a WFO).Perhaps in USA everybody uses very course sand in which case that ratio is fine. Here in S.Wales our builders sand is dredged from the estuary and is fine. It's sometimes called sharp sand as each granule is a shard shape as opposed to a round granule. It's still fine as sand goes so I use a ratio of 6 or 7 to 1:1:1.

Sorry about not knowing more about..."Grog".....I'm still learning!

Terry

[leetheldc]

Hi there grog and fireclay are 2 different products but grog can be made from fire clay they fire the fire clay to make grog it's also made from ground up firebrick like you said phill which is proberly what is mostly in our suppliers here in uk you can get it in numerous grit sizes I used it as my mortar for my oven as it can be used with just cement fondue I liked the 2 part mixup was a pain to use at first but once used to it worked great it allowed me to complete the dome with no forms at all as you only get one chance laying the brick with this mortar then it's stuck and going no where soon as you take your hand away some suggest using fireclay in the mix to give it the plasticizer effect but I didn't bother it's mainly used for kilns and other higher temp needs than a wfo. But I was informed by a number of sources that it is the belt and braces method I think that line came from Alf Armstrong oven builder if any has heard of him when I contacted him about it but saying that it's not a tried and tested method as is the home brew

[cannyfradock]

Lee

Alf Armstrong very kindly helped us out in the early days on the first forum as Moderator. He has created/built some amazing Pompeii oven from elaborate builds to very basic builds out in Portugal. Every one of his ovens work just as good as any continental import.

I don't know if he is still building ovens as his company www.armstrongbrickovens.co.uk/ is very popular and rated among the best of Wood-fired oven and refractory suppliers in the UK.

There's only a handful of true Artisan Oven builders in the UK and I would always put him as No.1 (I wouldn't put myself on that list btw)

Thanks for the info on grog...

Terry

[cobblerdave]

G'day
I found out the hard way that a freshly cut brick the mortar slid off. What tha!
I was bricking my dome over and it came as a suprise at first. I had built a brick dome no probems with the home brew sticking. Why now? Whey did it slid off the brick?
I soon discovered the slippery surface of the brick. And there was the variance. I'd always wet down the firebrick effectively washing the slippery fired clay from the surface. I washed each cut surface in fact cut as few as possible and used my tool of choice the brick bulster as much as possible. Washing of the dust took the slippery surface away and left me with a small amount of clay dispersed in the mortar.
This brings me back to the role that the clay plays in the poor mans mortar mix. The clay provide a measure of movement to the mix. It's possible to squish the brick into place then cut of the excess that protrudes from the sides. It's a lot more user friendly for folk like me that are "masonry impaired "
Aust has a larger landmass that makes it expensive to move premix bagged mortar. Most mortar is mixed using brickies sand which has a clay content to give it its workability.
I maintain that fireclay is not required in a wood fired oven but a dry powdered clay can be used. Our ovens cannt be fired to the level that the refractory properties are needed anyway. There are a lot of ovens that are built without that I know of.
What happens to the unfired clay in a WFO. It doesn't get to the temps required to sinter or fire it to pottery.
What happens is that is dehydrated to the point where it's not possible to rehydrate it so it becomes one of the cementious parts that hold the aggregate the sand together.
As for using phil using the finings from his brick cutting its been used by many from the Forno bravo for years and done the same thing. Provided the slip in the mix that makes it easy to use as a mortar.
Regards dave

[leetheldc]

Terry
I didn't know he was so popular! I got referred to him back in 2007 when I first looked at building an oven I had a nightmare trying to source materials the guys on forno bravo back then suggested I got in touch with Alf and bookemdanno I gave up the search until last year but I kept alfs email he was very helpful indeed he had a lot of time for me even though I only needed advice top bloke